Saturday, September 1, 2007

Being Claimed

There is a thread on a similar topic on a forum frequent. It's interesting, but it's not talking about being claimed in the sense that I'll discuss it here. However, there are some similarities and it's what got me thinking about this. That topic is on why black Americans tend not to identify themselves as African. Now I'm not going to get into that here, but it did get me thinking about something else today.

I had to go to the hospital to get my blood drawn for my monthly check-up. Commuting in Seoul is pretty much easy to do now that I know the layout of the city. However, even now, I'll switch up the route just to learn something new or in the hopes of finding a new shortcut. I also try to time things where I miss rush hour or the hours when school lets out.

Today, I completely forgot about that and was on the bus with a bunch of middle school students and they're still just as irritating as I remember them being when I was a middle school student. Honestly, I hate that age so much that, if I have kids, I'll probably really dislike them when they're in middle school just because they'll be terribly insecure and endlessly stupid.

What that means is I have to deal with gawks and stares and sometimes just completely stupid behavior. In Seoul it's not too bad, but if you're on the not-so-well-off side of town it can get irritating because those kids, well, let's just say their families haven't racked up the frequent flier miles. They're not very cosmopolitan. Their grandmas are probably going to gawk too. Although I go to a university hospital, it's on the not-so-well-off side of town, so I'm used to the locals over there. But it got me thinking about being "the other" and about this topic on that forum.

That lead me to the topic of being claimed in the sense of dating and relationships. First, let me say I'm going to be walking in the minefield of broad cultural generalizations here. So I know there are exceptions and outliers. All of this is based on my perceptions and perspective, so take it as that and not as a scientific study.

With that said, I've pretty much consistently dated outside of my race more due to circumstance than anything else. Here, I'm predictably surrounded by white man/Korean woman couplings. Nothing against it; it's to be predicted in the expat community here. I mean if I were a white guy with an Asian girl fetish, I'd get myself a job in an Asian country too. Also, some guys don't arrive with that preference, but due to sheer numbers Korean women outnumber Western ones. However, that's not really the issue. It's just primer to say I've seen and heard lots of cross-cultural, white man-Korean woman, dating stories.

I hear the men in these couplings sometimes bemoaning what they have to go through in a society that isn't overtly accepting of foreigners dating Korean women. However, since a lot of Korean women want to date foreigners and because Korean women seem more willing to marry out of their race, it's an interesting question. At least it seems that way to me, but black women are the most conservative about dating and marrying outside of our race. At any rate, dating a Korean woman is an easy thing to do if you're a white guy here. All men have to do is know a few phrases in Korean.

I've seen guys being coached in the basic lines. Something like "you're very pretty/beautiful", "what's your number?", etc. and the more aggressive Korean women will take it from there. Of course, there are less aggressive ones too and that's going to require a bit more skill and knowledge in terms of language and culture. Honestly, I've seen men fresh from the airport, two steps from the Elephant Man in physical attractiveness, and sometimes very on the low end of the IQ scale scoring women way out of their league. Sometimes the mismatch is so clear it's comical. There are also couples who are wonderfully matched, but the mismatched couples are pretty easy to spot.

What's interesting to me is I'll hear white guys complain that the women they're dating will hide the fact that they're in a relationship with them from their families. This is particularly the case with women who come from well-off families because I've heard of Korean women from less well-to-do families basically being cheered on when they discover she's "caught" a white man. I have one well-to-do Korean friend who was told by her father that if she marries a foreigner she's cut off and he'll never speak to her again. I didn't think he was serious, but she bought it until she recently got a white boyfriend. She was beside herself for awhile thinking her father was serious, but I told her to just tell her parents because they're going to find out sooner or later. She 'fessed up and all is fine on the homefront. In fact, with her parent's begrudged acceptance she's fallen off the face of the earth and is firmly in the dating zone with her new guy. I'm estatic that she's happy.

However, I've heard all sorts of craziness about Korean women not claiming the white men they're dating. I've heard guys bemoaning their plight when their Korean girlfriends and even financees won't tell their parents, siblings, and, sometimes, not even their friends. It's like having a double life. I could never have a significant relationship that I kept secret from the people close to me. That's probably what had me encouraging my friend to tell her family about her guy. I actually felt offended for him and, as he's not been in Korea very long and the fact that I also have a general read on his character, I figured he would be offended too. He's a great guy. He adores her. She adores him. Thus far, I see them as a great match.

I also know I could never be in a relationship where a man didn't want his family and friends to know he was dating me. What's interesting to me is that if that was a situation that I was in and my non-black boyfriend wouldn't tell his family and friends that he was involved with me, he wouldn't be my boyfriend for very long.

Why? Because the fact is I'm black and that's very much part of who I am. I think that since the US is so race focused that I'd view him telling his family and friends about me as something significant. I would understand the problems he'd have if he's from a conservative family, but I would want him to face the music and tell the people he loved that he loved me. I feel so strongly about this that if he didn't acknowledge me, I'd end the relationship. BTW, no, I've never had that problem. Even with one ex who claimed his dad was a raging bigot, he took me home to visit his parents one Christmas. So I have had that awkward "Guess Whose Coming to Dinner" situation. I'm very good socially, so I usually leave with the parents liking me more than they like their own kids.

In contrast, I know of quite a few white men here in relationships where they're hidden. The excuses that I would find simply unacceptble they accept: "She doesn't want to disappoint her family or parents", "She's scared of how her family will react", "She doesn't feel the time is right", "Her mother/father is sick/old and she doesn't want to make the situation worse/kill her mother/father", etc.

That got me thinking about what the difference might be. Are they just naive, pussy-whipped, punk bitches or is there something else going on here?

Why it's so easy for them to accept these sorts of excuses? If it was a man I was dating, I'd tell him to grow a backbone or go get himself a new girlfriend closer to his family's preferences.

I think one aspect is the gender roles and differences. Men are expected to be bold and strong. They're expected to be rule breakers when it's an important issue. Basically, they're supposed to be brave knights that are noble to the cause and save the day.

In contrast, women and, in particular, Asian women are seen as fragile things that need to be protected, educated and saved. Now I don't agree as my female Korean classmates and friends could give just about any man a run for his money. However, there are many Korean women and women in general who play up the helpless maiden routine. But the image of the Asian woman isn't the main topic here. I bring it up just to say that due to that image I think they get more chances.

Another issue is a white man might be reluctant to push being claimed for fear of appearing to have a colonialist, superiror or intolerant mind-set. I think this is because since they're from the dominant culture in a rapidly globalizing world there is no sense of being the "other". At least, that is, not until they get here. When they get here some revel in the attention. They're rock stars in a sense. Others aren't so arrogant about it. Either way, I tend to steer clear of them these days. In the past, I've been out in a group and have seen the ugliest most horse-faced white guy in the group be described as "handsome" by particularly flirty and nowhere near drunk Korean women. I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but you know something is up when 9s are hitting on 2s. I'd argue that a lot of that is a result of cultural dominance.

It's just an interesting question to me. A situation that would simply be unacceptable to a person of color is completely acceptable to these guys. It's interesting and, all I have to say, is better them than me.

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16 comments:

  1. Wow, you really should write a book. Some of your posts are chapteresque...and I mean that with utmost admiration and respect...seriously

    I think it's hard to gauge what Korean females are dealing with in regards to such relationships. I think it must run the gamut both on their choice of partners and how they integrate their current and past lives.

    Sadly, I doubt any Korean researcher has really delved into the subject matter.

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  2. Thanks for the compliment. I know when I get on a roll, I write a lot. That's why I'm glad I figured out how to do partial posts because seeing something THAT long, well, it's intimidating. Now people can read it and click "read more" if they care to.

    As to the topic, I know this one is a tough topic from a certain perspective.

    But from another it's really simple. If you love someone, tell the world.

    I mean there are some relationships that probably aren't worth ever revealing to family and friends. I mean I know some guys here who date Korean women for sport.

    But I also know some guys who really love their girls and so they want to be accepted. Those are the guys I feel for a bit.

    However, I was thinking about it today. I was thinking if they tolerate it then why should I have any sympathy for them? I mean they're putting up with being treated in a way that their Korean girlfriends would never treat a Korean man.

    I doubt any Korean sociologist, psychologist or anthropologist has taken it on either. They'd be screwed and wouldn't get any funding for such a study anyway.

    Also, would they even get honest answers? I doubt it.

    There are many things I like about Korea, but that avoidance aspect of Korean culture is one thing I don't like about the society.

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  3. ". I mean I know some guys here who date Korean women for sport. "

    funny, I've actually met a few Korean women who pretty much do the same...maybe sport isn't the right term.

    I used to feel the same as you regarding the "avoidance" aspect of Korean culture. Now I see the wisdom of it as well.

    In my experience, people everywhere tend to have very very good reasons for doing what they do..

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  4. I didn't mean to imply that Korean women didn't engage in the same behavior.

    I've heard stories of drunken booty calls made by Korean women to foreigners. The whole English Spectrum scandal was based on both foreigners and Koreans who seemed to pretty much be dating for "sport". The forum was shocking and hilarious because I remember reading it and knowing that when the news got out on it there would be a shit storm of scandal.

    The hypocrisy of it all was the foreigners got bashed. The Koreans did too. However, the brunt of the rage got focused on those nasty foreigners.

    I see the benefit of avoiding things at times too. That whole "do I look fat in this dress?" question is a clear situation where avoiding saying "yes, you look pretty stout in that get up" is probably a great idea ;-)

    I mean there are times I imagine what Korea would be like if all of them said what they really thought. It would get ugly real fast. From living here, I've learned to hold my tongue even in situations back home where I would not have a few years ago.

    It just seems that there is a lot of excuse-making stirring around this issue. Futhermore, not confronting it continues the mindset that dating foreigners is bad and worth hiding.

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  5. I had a student many many years ago who was at Harvard for a semester as an exchange student. While there, she attended a party, where a picture was taken of her with her arm around a Swiss exchange student...from Africa.

    Well, when she got back to korea, her father was infuriated....

    This was only 8 years ago, so this woman would be barely 30 now.

    This happens everywhere. I had a black girlfriend at college, she refused to tell her family about us. I understood.

    Every kid tries to please their parents..and not everyone's parents are open-minded.

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  6. Okay, I would say that even though it happens common that doesn't make it right. In fact, it makes it something that people should try to stand up against more often because it's so prevelant.

    Generation after generation deals with this and, really, it's time for all of us to try to make some progress on this issue.

    Furthermore, me writing about seeing it here in Korea isn't in anyway saying it doesn't happen elsewhere.

    There is a clear difference between what people should or ought to do versus what they actually do.

    I think people ought to be more forth coming about these relationships. It sets the stage for people realizing it's NOT some huge taboo. People have been attracted to and have fallen in love with others across race, culture and religious lines forever.

    The whole debate over inter-whatever dating and relationships is so antiquated to me. That I'm more shocked than not when I hear about someone who has problems with it. I don't think I could ever tolerate having someone hide me in that way.

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  7. Hi Jane,

    This was an interesting post. I agree with what chicago1 said "not everyone's parents are open-minded". Talking from experience, mine are not that open-minded too to their own daughter dating foreigners.

    Asian parents and Asian children comes from 2 different generations. I guess that speaks about a lot of parents in any other nations but in Asia the disparity would have been larger. You are in Korea, you can see for yourself how much tradition struggles with modernity. Parents may indulge their children in the most modern-everything, but they are not prepared to have their children "turn modern".

    I dated 3 people out of my race. Considering that Malaysia is a multi-racial country anyway, that wouldn't have raised an eyebrow. But I dated 3 out of Malaysian race, if I may say so. From all 3, I've only ever told my parents about one and as I expected they were not too pleased. It had to be done gradually and it was so stressful, I wondered why I bothered. With irate parents entering the equation I don't have to tell you it put a strain in my relationship and the stress was too much I had to let go of something so precious. Or rather, if I want to be honest, he let go because of the acceptance issue. I was trying to fix something that wasn't even broken.

    I personally believe I'm not about to disregard my parents' feelings when they have been the one feeding me and paying for my education. Relationships are not forever, parents are. Though I don't believe in not putting your own happiness first. I just say that sometimes this kind of situation needs to be approached slowly, delicately. Them not wanting to tell their parents doesn't mean that they don't love their man. For all we know they could be plotting strategies on how to break the news. It wasn't so easy for me. I nearly cracked.

    I'm now dating a foreigner too. I'm just hoping that my parents would be cooler with it this time since I'm in a foreign country, and it is highly likely that I'd end up with one of the people here.

    And you know what? I still haven't told them.

    I'd rather have this relationship nurtured and strengthen before even taking my own parents in it. Some of my cousins knows about it and none of them have breath a word to my parents...or even to their parents! We all know the difficulty one cousin experience when she came back from overseas with her foreign boyfriend. Rather than being happy that she's back, there was a blowup with the elders in our family. That shows how much my cousins understand what I'll go through.

    (Sorry for this long comment! You can delete it if you wish, I just want to tell you how I feel. :))

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  8. Actually, it's a great comment, so no worries. You've got to be pretty rude for me not to publish something.

    "I'd rather have this relationship nurtured and strengthen before even taking my own parents in it. Some of my cousins knows about it and none of them have breath a word to my parents...or even to their parents! We all know the difficulty one cousin experience when she came back from overseas with her foreign boyfriend. Rather than being happy that she's back, there was a blowup with the elders in our family. That shows how much my cousins understand what I'll go through"

    I get your whole story and I certainly don't mean tell your parents about someone you're just getting to know. But I'm talking about the situations that I've heard of where they're committed. She's be asked and she's said yes. But STILL parents don't know. Or situations where they're simply very serious about each other.

    I couldn't call myself being engaged to and in love with a man that my family didn't know about.

    Telling your parents about "blind date Bill" is probably not the best idea. But when Bill becomes "finacee Bill", I think it's time to fess up. That's when my ex took me to meet his father and step-mom. He asked me to marry him shortly thereafter.

    Excuses at that point seem to be more cowardly than not.

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  9. Thanks for approving my comment. I was half-thinking you'd have me whipped before even approving it. :D

    I know where you're coming from. With the boyfriend that I did told my parents, it was only because he proposed to me. Otherwise I would have kept it silent throughout.

    I wasn't disagreeing with your views anyway, in either your post or your replies to me. I was just offering another view. I couldn't resist because the issue striked home with me.

    I know some Koreans here in Australia who dates outside their race. Now I'm curious to ask them if they are facing the same problem. I wonder if there are any difference. Seeing that they were sent to a foreign country (therefore parents should at least be prepared for possibilities that they will be dating foreigners) as opposed to Koreans in Korea who met the said foreigners in their homeland.

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  10. You can disagree with me. People can and do, even though I'm sure they're completely stupid for doing so... ;)

    For me, the comments is a place to dish it out. It's rare that I get assholes commenting, but even then, I'll publish their comments because I feel if I don't they'll keep it up and will harass me in private. In fact, my first comment harasser basically assumed I'd read it and then delete it. I didn't. Instead I published every single stupid comment. I just come right back at them and that seems to let the wind out of their sails and then they creep off to someplace else to troll. This way anyone who checks out my blog can see I'm dealing with Rude Anonymous Crazy #X. I just find people can get very brave when they're hiding behind a computer screen, but that's not the case with you.

    Like you said, you're giving me insight. I still think when the relationship gets serious though, it's time to 'fess up otherwise you're pretty much insulting the person you claim to love so damn much and you're straight out being cowardly. I'd never want to be with a coward for any significant length of time.

    That would be interesting to know about Koreans in Australia. I bet most of their parents want and would prefer them to marry Koreans. I have one friend whose father is doing that very thing right now. Her twin sister recently got married and her father has a friend with a son in Australia. These fathers went as far as discussing the possibility of getting her to visit the darn country to meet this guy. Of course, we're all saying if it's that serious Australia-boy can get on a plane and come here. Either way, I don't think it will happen. This friend has some very alternative views on marriage and relationships.

    Okay, time to get to work.

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  11. "That's probably what had me encouraging my friend to tell her family about her guy. I actually felt offended for him and, as he's not been in Korea very long and the fact that I also have a general read on his character, I figured he would be offended too."

    You're looking at this as if the girl is ashamed of introducing her guy. But the pressure she feels is probably very real. There are families who would reject their children for being with a foreigner. It's easy to say that the women are cowardly for not introducing their guy, but if you had to make the choice between your family or your boyfriend, what would you do?

    "The excuses that I would find simply unacceptble they accept: "She doesn't want to disappoint her family or parents", "She's scared of how her family will react", "She doesn't feel the time is right", "Her mother/father is sick/old and she doesn't want to make the situation worse/kill her mother/father", etc."

    It's easy for you to say that coming from an American family and environment where all you have to consider is your own interests in choosing a mate. You don't have the added pressure that Korean women do of pleasing their parents. It's not good enough for the guy to have a good personality, but whether one's parents accept him and approve of him. It's easy to have a "backbone" when no one is challenging you.

    "However, there are many Korean women and women in general who play up the helpless maiden routine. But the image of the Asian woman isn't the main topic here. I bring it up just to say that due to that image I think they get more chances."

    Well, the reason they get more chances is because what choice do the men really have? They're in a 99% Korean country. Who else are they gonna date? That's just one of the things they deal with for dating Korean women.

    "Another issue is a white man might be reluctant to push being claimed for fear of appearing to have a colonialist, superiror or intolerant mind-set."

    What choice do they have in a 99% Korean country? You really do give them more credit than they deserve as a group. I don't think the majority of white men are so progressive or aware that they would care about appearing intolerant of superior. Not from the behavior I've seen. If they did care, then they would break up with their girl and find someone more to their liking.

    "I mean they're putting up with being treated in a way that their Korean girlfriends would never treat a Korean man."

    Well, some Korean men.

    Korean men also face similar pressures to marry another Korean, sometimes even more so. Anyways, dating in the Korean world is a different ballpark than American dating.

    As far as parents not approving of their children dating/marrying foreigners, it would be extremely simplistic to say it is out of hatred. Well, they might hate foreigners. But the reason Korean parents don't like it is because when their child marries a foreigner, the family dynamic will change. They can't expect the child's spouse to do what is expected of a Korean in-law. There are certain roles and responsibilities that come with marrying into a Korean family, especially for a daughter-in-law. So anyone who just dates a Korean thinking it is just about that person and me doesn't understand what is really involved in the relationship.

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  12. First, to answer your question: "It's easy to say that the women are cowardly for not introducing their guy, but if you had to make the choice between your family or your boyfriend, what would you do?"

    My family wouldn't reject me, you're right. However, if I had to make that choice, I'd face the music.

    Second, let me reply to this "It's easy for you to say that coming from an American family and environment where all you have to consider is your own interests in choosing a mate. You don't have the added pressure that Korean women do of pleasing their parents".

    Are you truly serious? Do you have any idea how much pressure black women face when dating outside of our race?

    Also, I definitely had to please my parents and did so quite often. Parental pressure isn't exclusive to Koreans and Korean society.

    The "you don't understand" argument is lame because when you and others make your points you show how much you don't understand the background I come from.

    Black American kids are under a ton of pressure. There is a common misunderstanding that more of us are doing worse than are doing well. When, actually, that stereotype that more black men are in jail or prison than is schools is patently wrong
    . Layer the low expectations and straight up fear of blacks that society has, in spite of some stats that would prove otherwise, and I'd argue that the pressure we face is just as grave.

    Furthermore, I'd argue that you have no idea what the hell you're talking about on this point. Of course, I had to please my parents. I didn't, however, had to worry about having racist parents or with parents that were so naive that they thought a non-black man couldn't understand our culture. For that, I'm thankful.

    Again, I'm talking about people who are SERIOUS. I'm not talking about sport daters. I'm not talking about casual daters. I'm talking about people who have possibly been in relationships for months and, most likely, years. Believe me, those men (and women) might not be Korean but they know what they're getting into. They might be surprised at many points along the way, but they're no less capable of adjusting than a Korean.

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  13. "Are you truly serious? Do you have any idea how much pressure black women face when dating outside of our race?"

    I was thinking of the overall American context. Not commenting about the black experience. The pressure is not just about pleasing, but fulfilling one's filial duty. In America, people have more freedom to choose their own partners, etc. Of course, this varies family to family. In Korea, parents are more involved in the marriage process.

    "Also, I definitely had to please my parents and did so quite often. Parental pressure isn't exclusive to Koreans and Korean society."

    I know.

    "Again, I'm talking about people who are SERIOUS."

    But you also referred to people who were not engaged. Even if serious, is it worth battling your family if you're not going to marry that individual?

    "Believe me, those men (and women) might not be Korean but they know what they're getting into. They might be surprised at many points along the way, but they're no less capable of adjusting than a Korean."

    If they are well versed in Korean culture, they would know. But a Korean in-law would know to do certain things without being told to. I am really doubtful because some things you would only learn by having intimate exposure to a Korean family. Would the "foreign" in-law be willing to do all the things that would be expected of a Korean one? Probably not, unless they were very Koreanized. That's why Korean parents are reluctant to have their kids marry non-Koreans. They know it will be a challenge. Being an in-law to Korean parents can be a VERY demanding job.

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  14. Yes, I'm sure a foreigner with a Korean spouse is going to have some issues adjusting. But I also know some Koreans who have issues adjusting and some who simply refuse to adjust.

    Having Korean blood doesn't give you exclusive rights to understanding Korean culture.

    Beyond that, I think our discussion on this is finished.

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  15. Freaking A. What the heck was that? You were almost screaming and kicking jstele. I don't understand how that was insulting or derogatory and anyway. I'm Korean. Dating there is pretty much like dating anywhere. some are serious, some are just stumbling around in hopes of finding something.
    Every thing you post starts with something like "yeah, I'm sure you'r right, but you're very wrong because..." or "It's rare that I get assholes commenting..." Are you trying to have a discussion or are you trying to beat your opinion into every poster in here?
    I really like your blog, but if you talked to me like that in real life I would just walk away.

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  16. "Are you trying to have a discussion or are you trying to beat your opinion into every poster in here?"

    I think if I were trying to have a discussion I'd head to a forum or would attach one here. So, no, I don't know if I am trying to have a discussion at all.

    It's a blog or weblog where I'm writing what I think. People are free to say what they think but if I disagree then I'm going to say so. I think that's pretty simple.

    I saw Gloria's point too and that's where I said something about asshole anonymous commentors, so that had nothing to do with jstele. That was some fuckwit who mistook my silence on the Korean hostage incident as I guess approval of how it was handled. Honestly, every someone with a blog on Korea had something to say about it. Why repeat the same ol' shit?

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Hey there! Thanks for visiting my blog. It's my first blog, and I'm glad folks are still stopping by even though I'm no longer living in South Korea. Feel free to comment. If you want a personal answer, leave your email, and I won't publish the comment. Nasty comments and spam links will not be tolerated.