Repost: Queer Thinker - Finally Surprised Me (with my added subtitle: Asian Guys Are Hot Too)

Here is a pic of Jang Donggun, 장동건, just 'cause.

Ohmygod...I was surfing around tonight and tripped over this post: Finally Surprised Me over at QueerThinker's blog.

Nunya makes so many great points in this post. I say that because I've got a new appreciation for just how damn sexy some Asian men are. I'm talking red hot. The white men here...nevermind, but they really don't compare. I've had a few crushes in the past (my former hapkido assistant instructor comes to mind as the most insane crush), so this isn't new. However, the predominant stereotype of the Asian man isn't one that's associated with sexiness. But, as I'm a black woman, I know very well how inaccurate stereotypes can be on an individual level. I feel like I'm in some minority when I talk about how this or that guy is cute if he happens to be Asian. In terms of actual relationships, however, it's the culture divide that's the deal breaker. The wonderful exception is the kyopo, who is in every way that I am, a Westerner.

Anyway, I like the points she makes because living in Asia I've seen quite a bit of bullshit when it comes to race and dating.

I guess another thing that surprised/bothered me was this idea that one race is better-looking than another. For some reason, it seems like black men are the flavor du jour while Asian women are the counterpart flavor du jour. I'm tired of that. While I have my preferences, I know there are times when a white guy will be the best-looking in a room, a black man will be the hottest, etc.

Dudes, please spare me with the "I like Asian women" drivel. They're very pretty and, yes, they don't have that edge that Western women have which means they're basically nicer. I got it. However, we all know that another reason you love them is that back home you'd NEVER score with women this pretty. Let's get real.

Also, I've got to say that going on and on about it would actually repel me. I've had guys tell me just how much they loooooooooove black women. That's great, but say that to me and you'll never see this black woman again. There is something patently offensive to me having someone reduce me to my color. Yes, it's a big part of who I am and defines me in some ways, but it's not the only or, dare I say, primary thing about me. If that's how someone sees me and they're careless enough to admit it. I'm gone.

Furthermore, I feel like this sudden fashionability of black men is, yet, another symptom of this mass movement occurring in the US entitled "White People Dying To Demonstrate We're Not Racist." ... But I think some of these other women are silently self-congratulatory, thinking they are waging their own modern-day civil rights movement or some such crap with their black boyfriend or husband and a Barack Obama sticker on the car or whatever. With Asian women, who knows...perhaps white men are being "revolutionary," too, but are generally too wimpy (or shall I say too fond of white male power?) to go too low on the social totem pole.

Wow! I've never been able to articulate that. I'm glad she did.

You see, I've kind of noticed that white women who get with black men tend to not have black female friends or even associates, and white guys who get with Asian women tend not to have Asian male friends or associates, HAHA. Not all, though, but I've seen it too many times.

Yep, I know a lot of white men here who've dated tons of Korean women but talk nothing but shit about Korean men. Those men are their fathers, brothers, cousins and friends. They're going to be at your weddings too white guys, so be nice to them. Korean society is far from perfect, but, really, to even say that is beyond rude and it simply smacks of some whites, yet again, being stuck in a colonialist mindset and thinking they're superior.

Here is the full post. You can click over to read it too.

Finally Surprised Me

Since I can't sleep, I've been thinking about this experience I had this past weekend and decided to come share.

Some friends of mine and I went out. This particular group of friends is great because we always end up having real conversations, whereas with some of the other people I know they always want to talk about the same empty twenty-something nonsense. Closer to the end of the conversation, we somewhat did that by talking about guys. One of my white friends, whom I've referred to here before as my best friend in law school (BFLS), said that she thinks black men are the most attractive men in response to my mentioning that another one of my white friends (my best friend in music, BFM) thinks black people are the most attractive. And since she was speaking to two black women, she assumed we would agree with that. I guess my black friend agreed, but I didn't see her response because she was sitting beside me and I was looking at BFLS, who was across from me. Plus, I just figure she probably would agree--I can't really see her dating interracially, though we've never talked about that.

When BFLS kind of asked us if we agreed that black men were the most attractive, I was thinking, "HELL NO!" and just shook my head no. She was kind of like, "You don't?" And I could feel that the next thing would probably be to assume I thought white guys were the most attractive, because that's what so many people do, i.e. the only options are black or white. At the same time, this is a friend of mine who should know better, because I tend to carry on about white men and not in a good way. I've been doing that with her almost ever since I've known her, so 2 & 1/2 years. So I just said, "I like Asian guys."

And then both of my friends went crazy. How? I guess just out-of-this-world couldn't believe I said that or could think Asians are more attractive than white or black people. Now, with the black female, I'm not necessarily surprised. I know how most black women are about Asians, especially when thinking about blacks and Asians dating--it's weird to most. But with BFLS?!?! White females actually do date Asian males. And, though I know Asians still do experience racism from white people, I have just never seen it, at least not in real life. To me, white people generally love Asians and have no problems with dating or doing anything else with them, so this was really amazing to me. And it still is. And, you know, I'm not ever surprised by racism, but this has really caught me off guard.

I kind of want to ask BFLS what that was all about. Chances are the whole thing will get lost in the hustle to graduate and figuring out what to do about the Bar exam. But I have a hard time resisting attempts to answer questions like this. And the other reason why her reaction surprised me is I know she would have something to say if someone acted like that in response to blacks. Usually, I hate when people try to act like everyone in the US gets way more up in arms when bad things happen to black people and just 100% won't tolerate unfair treatment towards blacks while they will do so with every other disadvantaged group and sometimes even with whites--it's not true. But with her, I think it is; she would have poo-pooed someone if they had acted shocked that anyone thought blacks were hot.

And this isn't the first time this has happened, but I guess I'm more shocked because I know her better. The other time was actually when BFM told me that her fiance--white guy--said he doesn't find Asian women attractive. Now, I was really surprised at that, too, and still think about that comment in amazement. But with that comment, it's not the racism I find in it so much as...you know, I've never heard of a white guy not liking Asian women, HAHA. And with him, I think he wouldn't totally dismiss dating a black female, so that's also interesting. I'm pretty sure many Asians have these experiences as teenagers and younger with white people, but I didn't really think it kept happening after that because the majority of white people appear to grow into a point where they accept Asians as almost no different than they are.

And the funniest thing is after her reaction, BFLS got back on her liberal (though she denies being a liberal) throne and started talking about how Asian men are hurt by interracial dating. As always, she was correct and knowledgeable with what she was saying. But still, you're going to act like I told you I was going on "Flavor of Love" so that I can date Flavor Flav at the idea that Asian guys can look better than black guys, and then talk about how much harder it is for Asian guys than other guys to find women. With people reacting like that, uh, YEAH it's harder!!

I guess another thing that surprised/bothered me was this idea that one race is better-looking than another. For some reason, it seems like black men are the flavor du jour while Asian women are the counterpart flavor du jour. I'm tired of that. While I have my preferences, I know there are times when a white guy will be the best-looking in a room, a black man will be the hottest, etc. In the past year, I've gone from being interested in a lily white-looking female to a dark black female to a half-Asian/half-white female. This weekend, I stayed up all night watching re-runs of "I Love New York 2" on VH1 and just thought the black guy Buddha was the sexiest thing. She picked this wimpy white guy called Tailor Made because he would allow her to run the relationship, and I get that--I applaud her for that one, not to mention find it hysterical. But the white guy had nothing on the black one. Buddha was just sexy. I'm not one of those people who exalts one race; I see beauty where beauty exists, and it could be in anybody.

So, I just can't stand when people make a blanket statement that one race is the most attractive, or act like a couple of races are acceptable but others aren't. Part of the reason I was like, "HELL NO!" was because I was rejecting the blanket nature of BFLS's statement. In other words, no, I don't think black men are more attractive than other men--I think there are all kinds of attractive men. Generally, I don't want to date them. But I notice good-looking guys. Furthermore, I feel like this sudden fashionability of black men is, yet, another symptom of this mass movement occurring in the US entitled "White People Dying To Demonstrate We're Not Racist." I know this is not true of BFLS. She's marrying a white male, and she said she wouldn't date black men because 1) that hurts black women, and 2) she would be afraid of black women, HAHAHA. Oh, man, I love that woman! HAHAHA. Plus, you can't be friends with me unless you acknowledge your racism, which she did a long time ago. But I think some of these other women are silently self-congratulatory, thinking they are waging their own modern-day civil rights movement or some such crap with their black boyfriend or husband and a Barack Obama sticker on the car or whatever. With Asian women, who knows...perhaps white men are being "revolutionary," too, but are generally too wimpy (or shall I say too fond of white male power?) to go too low on the social totem pole.

Anyways...

Meanwhile, they've got a little problem with Asian men and black women, gasping at dinner tables when people find them attractive or completely acting like they don't exist. Yep...definitely not racist. You see, I've kind of noticed that white women who get with black men tend to not have black female friends or even associates, and white guys who get with Asian women tend not to have Asian male friends or associates, HAHA. Not all, though, but I've seen it too many times.

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Being Claimed

There is a thread on a similar topic on a forum frequent. It's interesting, but it's not talking about being claimed in the sense that I'll discuss it here. However, there are some similarities and it's what got me thinking about this. That topic is on why black Americans tend not to identify themselves as African. Now I'm not going to get into that here, but it did get me thinking about something else today.

I had to go to the hospital to get my blood drawn for my monthly check-up. Commuting in Seoul is pretty much easy to do now that I know the layout of the city. However, even now, I'll switch up the route just to learn something new or in the hopes of finding a new shortcut. I also try to time things where I miss rush hour or the hours when school lets out.

Today, I completely forgot about that and was on the bus with a bunch of middle school students and they're still just as irritating as I remember them being when I was a middle school student. Honestly, I hate that age so much that, if I have kids, I'll probably really dislike them when they're in middle school just because they'll be terribly insecure and endlessly stupid.

What that means is I have to deal with gawks and stares and sometimes just completely stupid behavior. In Seoul it's not too bad, but if you're on the not-so-well-off side of town it can get irritating because those kids, well, let's just say their families haven't racked up the frequent flier miles. They're not very cosmopolitan. Their grandmas are probably going to gawk too. Although I go to a university hospital, it's on the not-so-well-off side of town, so I'm used to the locals over there. But it got me thinking about being "the other" and about this topic on that forum.

That lead me to the topic of being claimed in the sense of dating and relationships. First, let me say I'm going to be walking in the minefield of broad cultural generalizations here. So I know there are exceptions and outliers. All of this is based on my perceptions and perspective, so take it as that and not as a scientific study.

With that said, I've pretty much consistently dated outside of my race more due to circumstance than anything else. Here, I'm predictably surrounded by white man/Korean woman couplings. Nothing against it; it's to be predicted in the expat community here. I mean if I were a white guy with an Asian girl fetish, I'd get myself a job in an Asian country too. Also, some guys don't arrive with that preference, but due to sheer numbers Korean women outnumber Western ones. However, that's not really the issue. It's just primer to say I've seen and heard lots of cross-cultural, white man-Korean woman, dating stories.

I hear the men in these couplings sometimes bemoaning what they have to go through in a society that isn't overtly accepting of foreigners dating Korean women. However, since a lot of Korean women want to date foreigners and because Korean women seem more willing to marry out of their race, it's an interesting question. At least it seems that way to me, but black women are the most conservative about dating and marrying outside of our race. At any rate, dating a Korean woman is an easy thing to do if you're a white guy here. All men have to do is know a few phrases in Korean.

I've seen guys being coached in the basic lines. Something like "you're very pretty/beautiful", "what's your number?", etc. and the more aggressive Korean women will take it from there. Of course, there are less aggressive ones too and that's going to require a bit more skill and knowledge in terms of language and culture. Honestly, I've seen men fresh from the airport, two steps from the Elephant Man in physical attractiveness, and sometimes very on the low end of the IQ scale scoring women way out of their league. Sometimes the mismatch is so clear it's comical. There are also couples who are wonderfully matched, but the mismatched couples are pretty easy to spot.

What's interesting to me is I'll hear white guys complain that the women they're dating will hide the fact that they're in a relationship with them from their families. This is particularly the case with women who come from well-off families because I've heard of Korean women from less well-to-do families basically being cheered on when they discover she's "caught" a white man. I have one well-to-do Korean friend who was told by her father that if she marries a foreigner she's cut off and he'll never speak to her again. I didn't think he was serious, but she bought it until she recently got a white boyfriend. She was beside herself for awhile thinking her father was serious, but I told her to just tell her parents because they're going to find out sooner or later. She 'fessed up and all is fine on the homefront. In fact, with her parent's begrudged acceptance she's fallen off the face of the earth and is firmly in the dating zone with her new guy. I'm estatic that she's happy.

However, I've heard all sorts of craziness about Korean women not claiming the white men they're dating. I've heard guys bemoaning their plight when their Korean girlfriends and even financees won't tell their parents, siblings, and, sometimes, not even their friends. It's like having a double life. I could never have a significant relationship that I kept secret from the people close to me. That's probably what had me encouraging my friend to tell her family about her guy. I actually felt offended for him and, as he's not been in Korea very long and the fact that I also have a general read on his character, I figured he would be offended too. He's a great guy. He adores her. She adores him. Thus far, I see them as a great match.

I also know I could never be in a relationship where a man didn't want his family and friends to know he was dating me. What's interesting to me is that if that was a situation that I was in and my non-black boyfriend wouldn't tell his family and friends that he was involved with me, he wouldn't be my boyfriend for very long.

Why? Because the fact is I'm black and that's very much part of who I am. I think that since the US is so race focused that I'd view him telling his family and friends about me as something significant. I would understand the problems he'd have if he's from a conservative family, but I would want him to face the music and tell the people he loved that he loved me. I feel so strongly about this that if he didn't acknowledge me, I'd end the relationship. BTW, no, I've never had that problem. Even with one ex who claimed his dad was a raging bigot, he took me home to visit his parents one Christmas. So I have had that awkward "Guess Whose Coming to Dinner" situation. I'm very good socially, so I usually leave with the parents liking me more than they like their own kids.

In contrast, I know of quite a few white men here in relationships where they're hidden. The excuses that I would find simply unacceptble they accept: "She doesn't want to disappoint her family or parents", "She's scared of how her family will react", "She doesn't feel the time is right", "Her mother/father is sick/old and she doesn't want to make the situation worse/kill her mother/father", etc.

That got me thinking about what the difference might be. Are they just naive, pussy-whipped, punk bitches or is there something else going on here?

Why it's so easy for them to accept these sorts of excuses? If it was a man I was dating, I'd tell him to grow a backbone or go get himself a new girlfriend closer to his family's preferences.

I think one aspect is the gender roles and differences. Men are expected to be bold and strong. They're expected to be rule breakers when it's an important issue. Basically, they're supposed to be brave knights that are noble to the cause and save the day.

In contrast, women and, in particular, Asian women are seen as fragile things that need to be protected, educated and saved. Now I don't agree as my female Korean classmates and friends could give just about any man a run for his money. However, there are many Korean women and women in general who play up the helpless maiden routine. But the image of the Asian woman isn't the main topic here. I bring it up just to say that due to that image I think they get more chances.

Another issue is a white man might be reluctant to push being claimed for fear of appearing to have a colonialist, superiror or intolerant mind-set. I think this is because since they're from the dominant culture in a rapidly globalizing world there is no sense of being the "other". At least, that is, not until they get here. When they get here some revel in the attention. They're rock stars in a sense. Others aren't so arrogant about it. Either way, I tend to steer clear of them these days. In the past, I've been out in a group and have seen the ugliest most horse-faced white guy in the group be described as "handsome" by particularly flirty and nowhere near drunk Korean women. I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but you know something is up when 9s are hitting on 2s. I'd argue that a lot of that is a result of cultural dominance.

It's just an interesting question to me. A situation that would simply be unacceptable to a person of color is completely acceptable to these guys. It's interesting and, all I have to say, is better them than me.

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Relationships and Pulling Rabbits Out of a Hat

I was having an email conversation with a friend today about relationships. He shared a good analogy that he heard from a friend of his.

Basically, it went something like this: relationships are like the magician’s rabbit in the hat trick except that in relationships it’s totally unpredictable what might be pulled out of that hat.

From my personal experience, it can be an endearing cute miniature bunny (like my dearly deceased miniature rabbit Mr. Bunny ), it can be a terrifying rabid hare with blood-letting claws, or, in most cases, something in between like maybe a slightly neurotic rabbit that eats a bit too much and leaves tufts of hair on the carpet.

The challenge is will you be able to handle the rabbit eventually pops out of your beloved’s magician’s hat?

The conventional wisdom is you get better at this as you get older, but I’m beginning to question that as the last person I fell for completely threw me, and it was my fault more than anything. This was so much so that I realized that I wasn’t in love with him, but that I was in love with a fantasy that I’d put together in my head. When he performed his rabbit in the hat trick I was completely thrown off balance. It wasn't that it was a scary rabid hare, although sometimes it seemed to be, but it wasn't what I was expecting and it certainly wasn't what I'd fallen for. That was profoundly troubling.

I think one thing that got me off balance was being in a strange environment, yet assuming that people here weren’t that much different than the ones I’d left behind back home. I left San Francisco very open to seeing the world, traveling and learning about other cultures. What I didn’t realize was that people really are very different in some fundamental ways which runs head first into my belief that most people are essentially similar and mean well…or does it? I think both realities co-exist.

People are essentially similar as we all want love, safety and respect. I also think most people do mean well as I’ve been to many places and it’s rare that someone comes at me with hostility. In fact, most people I’ve met from Beijing to Berlin have been kind to me (less so in Berlin, but that’s another post). I think the differences arise when we don’t recognize those deeply embedded cultural differences that can turn an innocent faux pas into a huge offense and when we lack the patience to recognize what's happening and work with it rather than against it.

What I didn’t recognize was that even though I have a very racially and religiously diverse set of friends was that we were all young Americans pretty much raised in the same generation. Therefore, we share the same norms, have similar ideas of what is acceptable and unacceptable, and we have similar outlooks on the world. We also tend to be a fairly well-educated, well-read, opened-minded and well-traveled urban group of friends. Basically, we are the city and suburb dwelling middle class and up demographic that Audi and BMW are marketing to. What I realized was that my friends are more like me than unlike me in spite of superficial differences.

What that means is I went into the larger world thinking I had a handle on cultural differences when I didn’t. I only truly learned that over the last year when I had a couple of bull in a china shop incidents where I pretty much got responses I didn't expect. That surprised me because I thought I was Miss Cultured. The thing is when it crosses to interpersonal relationships things get difficult. That also leads me to the conclusion that the rabbit that I pulled out of my hat was probably more like that scary rabid hare than that cute miniature bunny.

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